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MS 46 is it a scoop or a hybrid.

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1 MS 46 is it a scoop or a hybrid. le Mar 3 Déc 2013 - 17:57

Dj Maestro

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HI soundguys,

has the MS46 the characters of a scoop, Spl, coupling, punch, throw etc.
Lets say if we compare a MS46 and a MK3 MINI SCOOP what are the advantages or cons between them. pushing them with the speaker( PD1850) and amp in same place.

2 Re: MS 46 is it a scoop or a hybrid. le Mar 3 Déc 2013 - 18:46

Marc34

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MS-46 is a mini scoop, exactly same same as a MS18. Here is the sim of MS-46 (red) compared to MS18 MKIII (blue). MS46 will goes a little lower, but MS-46 has higher sensitivity.

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3 Re: MS 46 is it a scoop or a hybrid. le Mar 3 Déc 2013 - 23:25

Dj Maestro

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Very nice sir.
you mean the MK3 will go lower then MS46.

"MS-46 is a mini scoop, exactly same same as a MS18". Is it the graphic of the MKIII or just the MS18?

and if it is has higher sensivity it will throw further and what about the coupling?

if I want to use with 18LW2400 the driver height is 189.9mm and the MS46 has only 192mm to fit the speaker. Is it oke so or are mod required.?

And what to do if want to use a chinese speaker(800W Bl 19, Xmax 11) but the height is 208mm.?

4 Re: MS 46 is it a scoop or a hybrid. le Mer 4 Déc 2013 - 17:26

Marc34

avatar

and if it is has higher sensivity it will throw further and what about the coupling?
If sensitivity is higher, at same power, the level of MS-46 will be higher than MS18 MKIII anywhere you listen.

The sim is MS18 MKIII

if I want to use with 18LW2400 the driver height is 189.9mm and the MS46 has only 192mm to fit the speaker. Is it oke so or are mod required.?
The driver is mounted on a 18mm panel, so if 18LW2400 is 189.9mm, 192-189.9 + 18 = 20.1mm so ok


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5 Re: MS 46 is it a scoop or a hybrid. le Jeu 5 Déc 2013 - 13:59

Dj Maestro

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yes that's true 20,1mm in total behind the magnet. The 18LW2400 is playing good in the MS-46. when pushing loud its vibrating my chest and pushing a lot of air. I think it dont need KICK bins. The Cubo sounds also good but, less SPL then MS46

And how can we fit the chinese speaker inside. He is 208mm in height. What mods i have to do in the MS-46.
We are doing some testing with different drivers in different cabs.
In 2 Cubos, 2 MHB-46 and 2 MS-46. The better one we will build more to use for DJing outdoor and clubs and also PA live in- & outdoor.

6 Re: MS 46 is it a scoop or a hybrid. le Jeu 5 Déc 2013 - 17:36

Marc34

avatar
And how can we fit the chinese speaker inside. He is 208mm in height. What mods i have to do in the MS-46.
Don't know parameters of the driver, but maybe will be to complex to mod without loosing anything, so will require a new design.


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Calculatrices Audio Android
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7 Re: MS 46 is it a scoop or a hybrid. le Jeu 5 Déc 2013 - 17:45

Dj Maestro

avatar
Do you think a double baffle will do good and/ or deeper cab to 75cm
Here are the Parameters:

FREQ RESP. 25 Hz ~ 1,000
SENSITIVITY FREE-AIR 95.75 dB / SPL

MAXIMUM POWER (RMS) 800W
MUSICAL POWER 1600W
NOMINAL IMPEDANCE 4 or 8  
RESISTANCE, RE 2.8 or 5.8 / dc
CONE AREA 0,012 Sq.m
Resonance frequency of 40.33 Hz
EQUIVALENT VOLUME 160.44 L
MECHANIC 9,048 Q (Qms)
ELECTRIC Q 0.432 (Qes)
Q TOTAL 0,412 (Qts)
PRODUCT BL TM 18.07

DIAPHRAGM MASS (MMD) 170.81 g
CONE TOUR WITHOUT DISTORTION (X MAX) ± 11 mm
Flux density of 9,400 Gauss NO GAP
Mechanical Specifications
NOMINAL DIAMETER 18 inches
DIAMETER FERRITE 220 X 25 mm
GAP HEIGHT 14 mm

8 Re: MS 46 is it a scoop or a hybrid. le Mer 11 Déc 2013 - 18:48

Marc34

avatar
This speaker will works in the MS-46. If the depth isn't too high, you could try this on the rear pannel of the speaker.

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"Il y a deux types de sonorisateur: ceux qui savent utiliser le bouton "preset" du processeur, et ceux qui savent à quoi servent les autres boutons."
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9 Re: MS 46 is it a scoop or a hybrid. le Mar 21 Jan 2014 - 21:49

Dj Maestro

avatar
Mr. Marc How's life

In singles the MS-46 will win the MK3 stipe in SPL, but if you put 4 cabs all mouth together which one will be louder and better sounding cab??? I'm asking this because the ms-46 is reflex type ( doubles the SPL)but the MK3 is horn type(this will couple better so more SPL and go lower). Dont know if this is true, but its how I see the plans..I've read somewhere bigger horn mouths makes more spl and low end.

If you have a sim of both(ms46 nad mk3) with 4 cabs is welcome..

10 Re: MS 46 is it a scoop or a hybrid. le Mar 21 Jan 2014 - 22:53

Marc34

avatar
MS-46 isn't a Reflex. MS-46 and MS-18 are all Scoops. it's exactly the same load, no difference.


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"Il y a deux types de sonorisateur: ceux qui savent utiliser le bouton "preset" du processeur, et ceux qui savent à quoi servent les autres boutons."
Calculatrices Audio Android
Bons plans Thomann

11 Re: MS 46 is it a scoop or a hybrid. le Mer 22 Jan 2014 - 13:48

Dj Maestro

avatar
Ooops no sir I mean the MS46 has a mouth like a vented reflex cab and the MK3 has a horn type mouth. So if horn mouths together will couple then better or not?

12 Re: MS 46 is it a scoop or a hybrid. le Mer 22 Jan 2014 - 14:04

Chris Kazvon

avatar
Hi,

The "coupling law" is the same on both cabinets.
It depends on the distance between the center of the two mouths, not on the type of load Wink

So there is properly not "better coupling" with one load or the other.
What must be compared is the frequency response of the coupled cabinets, in oder to see which stack goes the lower in frequency and the higher in SPL Smile


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Chris Kazvon

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13 Re: MS 46 is it a scoop or a hybrid. le Mer 22 Jan 2014 - 17:42

Dj Maestro

avatar
oh oke thanx mate, Very Happy  I'm just trying to understand study  the theorie behind this scoopsecrets Question ...
I'm looking for the best freeplan for miniscoop with the most SPL(40hz and up)to used in stacks of 4 and/of 6. in and outdoor.
If you have one freeplan for me I will appreciate that.

14 Re: MS 46 is it a scoop or a hybrid. le Ven 24 Jan 2014 - 11:56

Chris Kazvon

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I think the MTB-246 or the MN-246 could fit Smile

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Chris Kazvon

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15 Re: MS 46 is it a scoop or a hybrid. le Sam 25 Jan 2014 - 15:16

Dj Maestro

avatar
A free mini scoop plan or identical @ Chris Kazvon. I have problem with loading big cabs in my van. 4 Minis and 2 Mid high and amp rack etc... can go, but basscabs bigger then 1130cm * 750com is a problem.

I 4 have 4 CBX now, they are doing well but I can't load everything in one load in my van. Searching for a replacement for the CBX, smaller cab but with identical or better performance.

16 Re: MS 46 is it a scoop or a hybrid. le Jeu 26 Juin 2014 - 17:57

Dj Maestro

avatar
[quote="Chris Kazvon"]Hi,

The "coupling law" is the same on both cabinets.
It depends on the distance between the center of the two mouths, not on the type of load Wink

I don't understand this, sir.
Distance of what and which 2 mouths do you mean...If you can explain this maybe with a example orso.

17 Re: MS 46 is it a scoop or a hybrid. le Jeu 26 Juin 2014 - 20:54

Chris Kazvon

avatar
Hi Smile

you should look into this documentation Smile
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this sums up almost everything about subwoofer configurations

About the "small cabs", I drew this one a few months ago:
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made for the RCF LF15G401


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18 Re: MS 46 is it a scoop or a hybrid. le Jeu 26 Juin 2014 - 20:56

Marc34

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Bons plans Thomann

19 Re: MS 46 is it a scoop or a hybrid. le Jeu 26 Juin 2014 - 21:07

Chris Kazvon

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why hadn't seen this file before ?!?!

excellent doc Smile Smile thanks !


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20 Re: MS 46 is it a scoop or a hybrid. le Mer 11 Mar 2015 - 2:07

Dj Maestro

avatar
mr. Marc after using the CBX for over a year I'm still thinking to go back to my MS-46 i had build 4 of them 2 years ago, they are still in my garage unloaded.( i used them only 3-4 times indoors.
Mostly had played indoors with the cbx. they play well, rattling and vibrating everything inside, but last week outdoor event other sound guys told me 4 minis was more then enough for the outdoor event, were i was playing with 6 of my CBX. On a distance (20m)you cant feel them only heard.
That same weekend on another event I heard 4 minis ms18 mk3 playing outdoor from one mile. It was vibrating the roof a little in the shop i was. I was so amazed.

I have some questions.
How will the ms-46 play indoor and outdoor vs the cbx on paper, louder punchier.
Do you think im doing something wrong on eq. xover etc on the cbx that i dont have enough throw. i'm using dbx driverack pa +.
is it true that your mini's or other minis will throw further then cbx??

21 Re: MS 46 is it a scoop or a hybrid. le Jeu 12 Mar 2015 - 0:07

Marc34

avatar
About throw : again, it's a perception, not a physical reality, so it's just a feeling, and you must know what makes this feeling.

If you have a bass cabinet that goes very low, it will not capable to reproduce correctly high bass or kick. If the bass cabinet is a band pass, it will be the same, it will be limited in high bass (band pass acts like a filter).

Ears are less sensible in low bass. So, if you have one bass cabinet with 30/80Hz bandwith, and other with 50/120Hz bandwith, same sensitivity, the measured throw will be the same, but your ears will say you that the 50/120Hz is louder because your ears are more sensible in high bass than low bass. And even if you set same frequency cutoff, the 50/120Hz cabinet that goes higher, will have advantage because the filters doesn't cut with a hard slope.

There's others parameters that can affect perception, including phase coupling beween bass and low mid.

If you want a sub bass cabinet, it will require a kick bin, but it will be more difficult to maintain phase between sub, kick and low mid. If you don't wan't kick bins, you have to sacrifice sub bass.

Bass cabinets that gives the best perception throw have all a short horn and are hybrid (to maintain a correct low cut). An MHB-4818 is capable of 106.8dB 1w/1m (measured) in the usable bandwith, and capable of 110dB 1w/1m at 200Hz. So it will be heard as a very long throw cabinet, but it is a different sound than scoop. Don't know if it's what you searching


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22 Re: MS 46 is it a scoop or a hybrid. le Lun 16 Mar 2015 - 3:16

Dj Maestro

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hi marc..

yesterday i measure my MS46 inside dimension and ........ between dogleg and the baffle is only 18cm. it must be 19.2cm. 2 years ago  I had modified a another basscab with only 70cm deep. all other measurement are as your plans but only the chamber is smaller. I know from then i had told you that there is no throw to my findings outdoors with my ms46. and when pushing them loud it seems the basssystem runs out of steam.xover points where 40hz LR24 and 110hz LR24. amp power 2 * 1700W/
Do you think this changes i had made, gaves a big big difference in sound spl, low end, throw etc.

Which single bass plans you get for me, i always play with 4 bass or more(coupling no problem), it must deliver little sub and enough bass to feel and heard at distance(indoor large halls and outdoor in. doing modern house and dancehall music. I dont want to use apart kick cabs etc. or can I change the MS46 internal dimension where i messed up (baffle and dogleg space). I will load them with 18lw2400.

23 Re: MS 46 is it a scoop or a hybrid. le Lun 16 Mar 2015 - 23:21

Marc34

avatar
If you don't respect the plan, you change the load, so performance changes.


Which single bass plans you get for me, i always play with 4 bass or more(coupling no problem), it must deliver little sub and enough bass to feel and heard at distance(indoor large halls and outdoor in. doing modern house and dancehall music. I dont want to use apart kick cabs etc.
For what you're searching, make MHB-46 or MHB-4818.


_________________
"Il y a deux types de sonorisateur: ceux qui savent utiliser le bouton "preset" du processeur, et ceux qui savent à quoi servent les autres boutons."
Calculatrices Audio Android
Bons plans Thomann

24 Re: MS 46 is it a scoop or a hybrid. le Mar 17 Mar 2015 - 13:48

Dj Maestro

avatar
I build 2 MHB-46.
I load them with 18lw2400 and done a hope testing. when i pushed them at half volume it was playing very well. a little honky when crossed over 120+hz. (40hz butt24 and 120hz but24) but when i pushed them loud you can then hear a loud strange sound coming out of the cab. like the voicecoil was hitting or something else. I put more glue everywhere put more screws where i think maybe was giving the sound. I build it with plywood 18mm. both cab is have the same problem. not only one, thats why I think it is not the build it is the voicecoil hitting max.

25 Re: MS 46 is it a scoop or a hybrid. le Mar 17 Mar 2015 - 15:46

Marc34

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I don't kwow what you're making. There are hundreds of MHB-46 with LF18G401/N401 in France without problem. The 18LW2400 has higher Xmax than the RCF, so there's something wrong. Don't kwow what is the problem, but there is a problem. You must verify filters, amps, power out of the amp, and use good limiters. And remember that an amp that goes into clip can't control the cone of the speaker, so the cone goes crazy, and it is not the fault of the driver/cabinet, but the man who is behind the sound system.

a little honky when crossed over 120+hz.
You must eq the the low mid/high bass, and it will sound better. Sensitivity is very high in this range.


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